Russia and Ukraine are like an abusive boyfriend and his mentally fucked up girlfriend.

The boyfriend blames the girlfriend every time he beats her up, saying it's her fault he keeps hitting her. Yet his girlfriend just keeps going back to him, even though it's obvious to everyone else that he will eventually end up killing her.

Can we get Ukraine to the womens shelter in time?

>>14728
>Still not an explanation for why a group of people can't act in their own interest and must, instead, be forced at the barrel of the gun to jump through the hoops for another group of people.

Oh, you mean like how the West has been trying to steal Ukraine and force it to deny its own heritage for centuries? You mean the Polish/Lithuanian occupation?

>Oh how fucking noble of you to force your decision on them.
When there's a lie being told and your friend believes it, are you just going to sit idly by and not try to talk to him? How noble of you.



>the rest
Your conflation of "Russia" with the "Soviet Union" shows your ignorance and imprecision. The opposing view doesn't even have to issue an official rebuttal. You've defeated the core of your own argument by simply opening your mouth. You sound like a 9th grade public school student in the U.S. who read half of one book on the History of Ukraine.

>>14730
No it's rather like this:

Russia and Ukraine are two brothers. (We won't mention their other brother Belarus.) Ukraine, the older brother is beaten and taken captive by Poland, the local bully. The same happens to Russia, but Mongolia is the bully that beats him. Ukraine is brainwashed by Poland. All day every day Poland controls Ukraine's decisions and forces Ukraine to accept his cultural norms. He tells Ukraine, "I'm protecting you. You need to stay in my basement because there's a war out there. Without me, you will die. I am your protection, I am your source of wealth." Occasionally, Russia manages to slip secret notes into the locked basement where Ukraine is being held.

The younger but bigger and tougher brother, Russia (Great Russia/Muscovy), eventually gangs up on Poland with the help of Prussia and Austria. They pull Ukraine out of Poland's basement and bring him home. Ukraine has Stockholm syndrome and misses being controlled by Poland. Ukraine develops a split personality.

Some days Ukraine hugs Russia and remembers the old times. Other days he spits in Russia's face. Ultimately Ukraine begins to think that Russia is not his brother. Voices in Ukraine's head convince him of this. Russia and Ukraine are then attacked and thrown in a gulag by the new bully: the Soviet Union. They are put in different cells.

Ukraine is starved and Russia is beaten. Ukraine convinces itself that Russia is holding it hostage. Eventually the Soviet Union dies of congenital heart failure. After Ukraine and Russia are released from the gulag, Ukraine looks at Russia with his sunken, emaciated face. He then looks at the Western countries which are beckoning to him. Ukraine walks away and sits in between the Western countries and Russia. He looks at Poland and Lithuania and thinks, "These are my buddies." As illogical as that sounds, that is what Ukraine does.

Then Ukraine decides to get even with Russia. It begins to act hostile and prefers the Westerners who are holding Slut Pride and Gay Pride parades. It sees a new club called the EU Club and wants in. Ukraine burns his journals and writes new journals pretending that he was an only child. He forces himself to forget his past, and asks Poland to tell him bedtime stories as he falls asleep in his padded cell.


That's far more accurate.

>>14748
>That's far more accurate
Only if you're choking on Putin's cock.

>>14728

Here's a different perspective: If what Ukrainian nationalism espouses is true, that Ukraine has become a separate nation/civilization/culture, then this status would also apply to Belarus and the western tip of the Russian Federation -- Smolensk and the region around it. The thing is, if you talk to Belarussians-even the nationalists-they consider themselves part of Rus, and look to the Russian Federation in a completely different way from the Ukrainians. They see themselves as a type of Russian.

So what's the difference between Ukraine and these other places? How is Ukraine somehow different if in fact--and it's an historical fact--that Ukraine contains Kiev, the "mother of all Russian cities?"

>>14748
What kind of fucked up family do you have where one brother cuts off pieces of other family members and tries to attach them to himself?

You pretty much have people in Ukraine doing mental back-flips and re-writing history textbooks in order to rationalize this modern identity that they've invented. They can't accept history or even their own culture, these nationalists have to keep pushing for their little Uniate realm.

Ukraine is a case of regional Stockholm Syndrome like related in that story a few posts prior. It's pretty sad when your people birth a civilization (Rus') and then deny it, claiming that only Muscovites are Russian.

Ukraine is a part of Russia, similar to how Texas is a part of the USA, or Bavaria is a part of Germany.

>>14752
Too bad Ukraine is labeled Ukraine and not Russia. And that Ukrainians think of themselves as Ukrainians and not Russians.

Sounds to me like all those Russians whose great grandparents invaded Ukrainian territory and now self-identify as Russian should move back to Russia, leaving Ukraine for the Ukrainians.

Russia's having a population crisis, since most of the non-Russians and even Russians have left in droves over the past couple decades, so an influx of "Russian" people should get them back on track. Get that sub-Brazil economic output up to Brazil-level output.

>>14753
You're missing the point. The very invention of Ukraine nationhood, the existence of the Ukrainian state, the delineation of Ukraine and the Russian Federation is a mistake that the Ukrainians are paying for now. This whole Donbas War and Crimean secession was very predictable, everyone in the region knew it was coming. A Rusyn secession is likely in the next decade. Hostilities could even boil over in Kharkov, Odessa, Kiev and other cities within the next couple of years.

It isn't a case of "Russians going to Russia and Ukrainians staying in Ukraine." That's a completely twisted concept tantamount to "Brittons leaving Whales to the Welch." It's a false narrative. It's a false premise. Ultimately, your talking points as well as those of Ukrainian nationalists present a false dichotomy.

>Sounds to me like all those Russians whose great grandparents invaded Ukrainian territory and now self-identify as Russian should move back to Russia, leaving Ukraine for the Ukrainians.


I am an American of Russian descent. My family lived in ethnic enclaves for 3 generations. Their neighbors were Russian and they were active in the local Russian Orthodox Church as well as the local Russian cultural center. The Russian immigrants stuck together. These people typically immigrated from 1905-1925.

The thing that most Americans don't understand about the Russian immigrants in America, is that the vast majority of them were not from what is today the Russian Federation. The vast majority of them were from what is today Ukraine and Belarus. My family and the other Russians they were around were almost exclusively from what is now the western tip of Ukraine and the western half of Belarus. They were not "Great Russians." Very few Great Russians were present in their community. You need to study the history of Russian immigrants in America, that would help. These people (who were from what are now the most active regions of anti-Russian propaganda, the most chauvinistic nationalistic regions of Ukraine and Belarus) identified as Russian when they immigrated to America. They were not "Ukrainian" or "Belarussian" in nationality. They identified as "Russian", pure and simple.

So in other words, I know what I'm talking about. I'm not just another westerner trying to discern the conflicts in Ukraine from a western standpoint by glancing at a globe from 1992.

So what happened? Back then the people in these particular regions identified as "Russian" but now they call themselves "Ukrainian" and "Belarussian." This is a clear and objective sign that some sort of transformation took place. Some change in talking points, some shifting of narratives took place between 1930 and 2000. These are facts, plain and simple. You can't deny them and remain honest.

The fact of the matter is that these local nationalisms took root as a response to Soviet governance. They gained traction because of the Holodomor and the demonization of the Tsars by the Soviet education system. Furthermore, the Soviets were focused on establishing International Socialism. No longer would nations erect individual governmental systems, but instead nations would be brought together in socialist union. They would have a common governance, and that was what the Soviet Union sought to achieve. So what happened was: the Soviet delineated Ukraine as a brotherly "nation" within the Soviet Union. They divided the territory and claimed that an international socialist government had been successfully established. They latched onto the Uniate myths of centuries past, the first inklings of Ukrainian nationalism and amplified them. The ideas of Ukrainian nationhood began in intellectual circles of anti-Tsarists in the 18th and 19th centuries. These ideas were not widespread until the Soviet times. The contrived and short statehood of a Ukrainian state immediately after the Boshevik Revolution was an attempt by such elements to capitalize on that catastrophe for Russian civilization. They took advantage of the political disintegration and formed a state with the shelf-life of a cabbage. Then the Holodomor happened and Ukrainian nationalists latched onto that communist catastrophe like Zionists latch onto the Holocaust.

You need to get your facts straight before you go supporting these lying faggots from Lvov.

>>14765

>>>That's a completely twisted concept tantamount to "Brittons leaving Whales to the Welch."

Who did you quote that said the British are surrendering humpbacks to a Grape juice company?

"So in other words, I know what I'm talking about."

Shit NEGRO that's all you had to say. Case closed you Slavic motherfuckers YOU ARE ALL RUSSIAN, now stop trying to have an independent democracy and start felching Putin's ass in forgiveness.

>>14768
>>14768
*Welsh

>>14765
>the delineation of Ukraine and the Russian Federation is a mistake that the Ukrainians are paying for now
It's always the bitch's fault when I hit her. She never should have delineated our relationship into her and me, it's always us, and if she ever puts herself before me ever again, I'll put her back in the hospital.

Victim blaming 101: Wannabe russian style.

>>14771
That whole "girlfriend getting beaten and then blamed" narrative does not apply to Ukraine. It's apples and oranges.


Sometimes people choose to live in shit. They prefer to have struggle and controversy. The whole point that's being made in this thread is that Ukrainian nationalism is an activist movement, it's like a big, raucous protest. It's a lot like the hippie movement, where people begin to identify themselves in relation to a protest.

That's what people in the west miss about this whole Ukraine deal. Compare Ukrainian cultural centers with other cultural centers. The Ukrainians are always in the process of issuing an argument, an excuse for why they are allegedly not part of Russia.

The problem is, that when you actually study history, you begin to see that their claims are suicidal and fratricidal.

>>14780
"Kievan Rus"

"Kiev", "Rus"

"A city in present day Ukraine which was the capital of Rus at one time", "The name of the Russian Federation, the state of Rus"

"A region held captive by the west for centuries", "The region of Muscovy, the free Russian state"

I understand OP's points and sympathize with his cause.

But the only way I can see Ukrainians embracing their heritage and joining forces with Russia voluntarily is if Russia becomes a serious contender to German (EU) and US power and influence.

By rejecting "modernity" and "globalism" (as defined by the current power blocs), while succeeding economically, Russia will increasingly become an alternative model for those nations that perceive something ominous going on in the West and are reluctant to fully embrace it. Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic are examples of countries with friendly relations with Russia despite having neighbours hostile to it.

But Russia still has a long, long way to go before they can hope to consistently compete with the formidable power of the US and Germany. So far Russians have been counting on superior diplomacy, decisive use of force and their rivals' own stupidity. Those things can only take you so far though.

Not just for Ukrainians but for the West's own sake I hope Russia succeeds.

Yes, if only Ukrainians would go back to that abusive boyfriend, who beats them up and kicks them down the stairs whenever they feel like, who steals their money whenever they feel like, then, and only then, will Ukrainians truly embrace their history and heritage.

Sorry kids, but Ukrainians can determine their own fate. They don't need someone in another country telling them what to do. The sooner Russia wakes up and realizes that Ukraine is for Ukrainians and not Russians, the sooner Russia will stop being viewed as the antichrist.

I find it ironic that the people claiming that everyone outside the small area of eastern Ukraine is corrupt aren't simultaneously calling for Putin's head on a stick for bombing all those apartment buildings in 1999.

Why is Ukrainian "corruption" - "corruption" that calls for Ukraine to be led by Ukrainians and not by Russians - not okay while Putin's corruption - which directly lead to thousands of pointless deaths - perfectly acceptable? Why is it that opening any kind of independent investigation into those apartment bombings ended up being grounds for imprisonment?

Why is it that Russian corruption is perfectly A-OK, while Ukrainian corruption - tainted at every turn by the shoddiest trumped up evidence seen in the modern world - grounds for invasion and widespread murder?

Hypocrisy on this level is not a moral high ground you can use to write paragraphs and paragraphs of specious and contradictory statements. For christ's sake you write about the CIA with baited breath, almost as if you're Putin himself, who gets scared of his own shadow the moment those three letters get mentioned.

>>14786
That's a completely false narrative. The whole point is that Russians and Ukrainians are the same people. They are both "Rus." The west has worked hard and is still working hard to convince the Ukrainians that they are a separate nation and share nothing with Russia proper.

We're talking about a region of Russia that was taken over and ruled by the Poles & Austrians for centuries, a place where the Russian vassals were instructed not to unite with their cousins in Moscow and overthrow he foreign rule. We're talking about a "nation" invented by liberal and Catholic malcontents, a "nation" invented by people who sought disunity and fragmentation.

How has the Ukrainian national experiment worked out so far, honestly? It's a disaster!!! Ukrainians suffer, and their land and asses are western property again! That was the whole point of that farcical nationalism.

>>14793
Its a false narrative that both groups are Russian. If they were both Russian then Russians wouldn't treat Ukrainians different than Russians. That's a fact that has not only been historically accurate countless times, but is currently relevant. Since Russians don't treat them as Russian, therefore they aren't Russian.

Either treat them as Russian and let them do what they want, or treat them different and admit they're not Russian. You cannot have it both ways.

Similarly, if you want to complain about corruption, either deal with your own massively corrupt officials (try starting with the $40 billion Putin embezzled), or shut the hell up about some supposed corruption that doesn't nearly rise to the level of corruption present in your government.

>Ukrainians and Bealrussians are in fact Russians who lived under Western European rule. That is the only difference between them and Muscovy.
What's then the difference between Ukrainians and Belarussians? Why do Ukrainian nationalists not pretend to include Belarus in their nation (or vice versa)?
And if Kievan Rus needs to be reunited so badly, why shall it be around Moscow and not old capital? Could it be because it were northeastern principalities who broke off from Kyiv's rule first?

>>14805
More like the superior rus broke off from the inferior rus, the inferior rus then collapsed, a bunch of criminals acquired its assets, sold them off to furriners (thereby bankrupting future generations), then started attacking superior rus to try and distract the few non-drunk inferior rus citizens from seeing what they've done.

Its like when the US invaded Iraq, to distract the biscuits and gravy eating citizens from realizing what Cheney was doing. That worked so well they still haven't figured it out.

File 145938902973.jpg - (49.12KB , 911x683 , DN2012-polsko1.jpg )

>>14625

Meh

>>14797
Ukrainians were under Poland and Belarusians were under Lithuania. That is the only reason why two separate dialects and identities developed.
They should unify, and it should happen around Moscow, because Russia is the legitimate successor to the Kievan Rus' and not Ukraine. Russians kept their identity and national name. Also, if we're going for the original capital, it's Novgorod, which is in Russia as well.

>>14848
>legitimate
lolno

File 146317192819.jpg - (85.67KB , 457x640 , ucranianos.jpg )

File 146317200837.jpg - (28.84KB , 453x604 , ukr_master_race.jpg )

File 146950886477.png - (651.12KB , 1244x1144 , 33.png )

>>14625
ur saying baltic through balkans isnt latin anglo? lewwwl

OP is dimwit faggot
https://media.giphy.com/media/8PdhuZdEGFpweLWOzP/giphy.gif

File 168577426836.jpg - (479.63KB , 2048x1536 , 20230603.jpg )

Himars stands with Ukraine

>>14625
No way, Russia has plenty of space.
Nearly all of
Europe is a lost cause.

This stalemate is going to go on and on.

>>14748
Wow. Top shelf.

It looks like it has now become time more than ever for the invasion westwards.

Where will they herd all these sardines on the loose? My vote is south of Transylvania or Germany.

>>14786

>Sorry kids, but Ukrainians can determine their own fate

Good, then stop stealing money from my country every time your fucking president holds out the begging bowl

>>15726
Most politically conservative viewpoints encountered in the wild boil down to pretending not to understand how something works. In this case, what you're pretending not to understand is taxation, government spending, and war.

>>14625
The historicist justification for the war is just slop for the dumb masses.

Carta marina is interesting. Look closely at today's Balticum. Between the two lakes, there's a RVSSIA ALBA (White Russia).

And southwards from the western lake, there's an "I". And just south of it it says RVSSIA REGALIS NIGRA (Black royal Russia)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carta_marina

Because everything Russia touches turns to shit.

>>15734
Pretty much this. The Russian doctrine for the last 500 years was that of a parasite. They leach off anything of worth and transfer everything to the people on top in Moscow/Petersburg. That's the entirety of Russian history and it's true even today where Moscow is the only developed and inhabited portion of Russia. While all the oblasts to the east are treated as excavators for resources or meat for Russian wars. And to cement this status there is a regulated freedom of movement within Russia.

Thread started out pretty good, but then some butthurtbelter got involved.

I think the good point is the one about big fish in a small pond, localized overlords try to form their own identity to legitimize themselves and through time it becomes a big thing. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It obviously worked better in the past when there wasn't as much data collected and written down, but today it's doomed to failure. Maybe if they had turned to a civic nationalism format instead of basing their entire identity on "not Russians," it would have some more merit. It's frankly insulting to anyone's intellect to listen to a Ukrainian explaining he's not Russian while speaking Russian and referencing Russian history.

>>14625
But Russian nationalism is just as western. There is no difference. The way it's doing it's darnest to get rid of any cultural heritage of the people that lived there before the Slavs

Who cares if they have ethnicity in common with a shit empire? Latin empire is better, so logically, they change sides

>>14726
Belarus today is more Russia than Russia is.

Ukraine is moving on and trying to play nice with everybody else.

Russia is a big and powerful country. It could do the same and in some sci-fi universe where the entire ex USSR is in EU, stand for all those values you speak of, but they ego is to big and they can't let go of the memory of the empire or USSR to just be 'the most powerful country in EU', where they would still need to be considerate to others.

And so, what they're doing is like - if I can't be the boss in your game, I will invent my own. And that just does not work in a world where everybody is trying to do business with everybody else and so on.

All this leaves Ukraine, and I guess Belarus in a sort of a situation of being in an abusive relationship. Where you have to choose between the homeless shelter or go back to your drunk boyfriend and let him keep abusing you. The future looks brighter with EU rather than Russia and EU's 'invasion' is quiet and nice, while Russia likes to rub it in that they are the boss.

File 174498230124.jpg - (271.46KB , 1262x1166 , sponsored by Brazzers.jpg )

>>15743
So they have chosen death.

Obviously The Soviet Union jettisoned Ukraine because they lost the majority to the European hobbit turkey jew types. Corruption breeds corruption. They could keep their ethnic majorities inside Russia but not the satellites because of the endless Arabian invasions.

How can a minority claim a nation?
But a country can claim another country.

White Russians have the most in common with types like the pure Japanese and Anglos.

>>14625
>Ukrainians and Bealrussians are in fact Russians who lived under Western European rule. That is the only difference between them and Muscovy. Why embrace the foreign chains? Why deny one's identity in favor of a foreign force? Why seek to create weak, poor states continually begging for alms from the West? Why not re-unite with the Russian Federation to restore Rus?

Why be corrupt deceitful greedy jew hobbits when you can work hard and struggle against corruption?

>>14626
NATO and the EU stab each other in the back all the time and are going to do the same to those jews in Ukraine.

>>14631
MY understanding is the Franks moved to Germany because the Catholics wouldn't stop pushing them. After Germany started losing wars, the Franks moved further.

The Franks are not equivalent to the Normans either, which moved north after the region which is now called France was raped and stolen by the Catholics for hundreds of years around year 900. Corruption for the sake of corruption, like selfish nihilists.

>>14641
>The CIA hasn't been capable of toppling anything stronger than a wet paper bag for decades.

:3 the CIA-M16 alliance has caught so many politicians and forced so many governments and parties to fall that it is completely dominant in the global media, even helping Han-China suppress the Ming-China rebellion.

They come for absolution and truth and reconciliation. But they ended up spreading death after recognizing the error of the sinful ways of their respectful masses.

The erroneous governmental powers are being defeated at an increasing pace. The problems should be eliminated at the source, the problems are unreasonable and selfish actors.

>>14748
That was precious, I find it very funny.

>>14793
There are so many different peoples composing Russia and most of them have Asiatic origins. Similar to how the UK represents more than 4 races, it is not merely an English nation, it is a united kingdom. And Russia is a federation of cultures.

>>15744
Since Egypt became a wasteland from the comet-induced flood that collapsed the ice canopy (an ice canopy which can be restored) the ancient space motherships with nuclear weapons have mostly been based near the north pole, Russia is the main portal politically, since these stellar machines operate in the dark.

While Ukraine is a nexus for European aggression now, it was a nexus for corruption before. It is obvious that Russia holds the leverage and nuclear reprisals have the nations powers controlled at the soul.

The electric weapons of the empire render most governments militaries useless if they threaten it. The satellites are all subject to these electric weapons, as are all air force and heavy ground equipment. But they do not want to expose their advantage yet, and yet still Russia is corrupt as a society as well.